‘Giving Gazans A Good Life’

17 thoughts on “‘Giving Gazans A Good Life’”

1. From BBC : The Israeli PM says he seeks full control of Gaza, the removal of Hamas and then to transfer governance to another party.
   I can’t see what is wrong with that.

   1. What’s wrong with it, Lee, is that you believe him. Jesus Christ. Wake up.

2. The globe needs a Swiss conference on ‘collateral damage’, the grim reaper for civilians. How many innocents can you kill to get one bad guy; 5, 50, 5000. Netanyahu will tell you they didn’t want to harm a hair on one innocents head, but what choice did they have. I hate to say it, but the 20th century sure set the precedent that taking out 100,000 or more at a clip is OK as long as your god is on your side. There was a lot of fine print with the “thou shall not kill” thing that somehow wasn’t in the copy I got at 6 years old.

   1. But here’s the thing (and this another one of those very, very difficult aspects of the war for people to come to terms with): Not everyone in Netanyahu’s government said any such thing about not wanting to harm innocents. There are some people in that government who are all for it, and in some cases avowedly so.

      1. /quote
         If you’re having a difficult time reconciling that reality with the otherwise favorable impression you have of the Jewish community, join the club
         /unquote
         my feelings exactly. As always on the point and succint.
         Somehow the Israel/Gaza situation reminds me of the US post 9/11. At first there was an outpouring of sympathy from almost all around the world, then that sympathy was p***ed away by the totally disproportionate reaction.

         1. Here’s a comment from a long-time orthodox rightwing ex-IDF officer living in Israel:

            “Thank god will be getting rid of bibi next year
            He has destroyed the brand called Israel and Jews around the world”

            I guess Alan Dershowitz would accuse him of being anti-semitic?

      2. From my personal conversations with people who have very strong opinions about this, talking about innocents is not even the right framework, not in their minds. Everyone there is indoctrinated to hate the Jews and kill them whenever possible (evidence: massive “civilian” participation on 10/7), children will grow up to become adults with this exact mentality, so there is no other way to survive other than to kill them all. I am not even exaggerating. Obviously not everyone feels this way but still.

         Israel left Gaza in 2008 for a reason. The society still remembers and that’s why they are reluctant to go back. Occupation will be very costly so, in a sense, I do believe that ideally they don’t want to govern it long term. But they might end up doing it anyway.

3. The general attitude I see coming out of Israel reminds me of seeing the armed dead in Viet Nam being dragged away from the majority of dead which were old men, women and children for photos and body counting purposes of the armed ones. Looking at this I said,”This is F##ed up.” Someone mentioned that they either fathered, mothered or would grow up to be communists, price you pay.

   1. What’s really messed up is that they are one our top ten suppliers of many types of goods and they are still who they were. Frankly, they make the best shirts there and it’s all I buy any more.

4. I’m on record here that my largest cohort of friends and acquaintances is Jewish, and the runner up isn’t close. I’m of exactly the same mind here as H, and happy (and a little surprised tbh) that almost all of my Jewish cohort also feel this way.

   But a couple among them have turned on me, slapping me with a permanent antisemite tattoo and suggesting I go hang out with the Squad for my temerity in crtiticizing Israel in Gaza and the West Bank since Oct 7.

   I can’t argue or discuss the topic with these outliers anymore, so I had to give them the Gaza treatment and expunge them from my life. They chafed at my suggestions that claiming antisemitism everywhere all the time tends to make the term meaningless, and that if they thought antisemitism was bad before Oct 7, then what Israel has done since Oct 7 isn’t going to improve that much (contrary to their assertion that Israel has done the dirty work and the world a huge favor).

   In the end, before cutting off contact completely, I offered a warning: it may be convenient to conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism now, but there may come a time in the near future when that conflation will prove less convenient (if not existential) and they may be disappointed (or worse) to find you can’t unmix that drink.

   1. This conflation is a simplification due to high correlation. Sure, you can criticize Israel without being an antisemite. But usually this just a convenient cover. At least, most Jews feel that way.

      1. “usually this just a convenient cover.” Got any data to back that up? You’re a quant, after all.

      2. You know what’s anti-Semitic? This quote: “At least, most Jews feel that way.”

         There’s this thing unwitting racists do where they think they’re not being racist because they’re saying something in favor of a particular group. “Most black people aren’t criminals.” “Most Hispanics aren’t here illegally.” They think that highlighting a positive (not a criminal!) makes it not racist even as they’re engaged in full-on stereotyping. What does being black have to do with criminality? Hispanic with immigration status? Oh, you’re just “playing the odds?” That’s fine when you’re drawing to a flush while getting 10:1 pot-odds. But when you’re making a blanket statement about a particular group based on your preconceived notions, that’s just garden variety racism.

         “Most Jews.” You don’t speak for Jews, not “most” of them or any other subset of them. And you don’t get to conflate Jewry with the state of Israel. Prior to the era of Likud dominance, Israel was famously the most socialist-leaning of all democracies (or at least in the top three, depending on the year). Was it anti-Semitic to criticize Israel’s socialists? Of course not. You know better. Now try to actually be better.

         On a final note, your comment is painfully ironic in a way you clearly are too dense to recognize (I’ve switched to just insulting you now, I hope you’re okay with that). You straight up justified your banal, content-free criticism by saying the “conflation” (unspecified), is, “a simplification due to high correlation,” then you made an argument that rests entirely on correlation. At least, most statisticians feel that way.

5. I agree with your assessment. But how does this war^H^H^H genocide get stopped? As you and commenters (FuriousA in particular) have noted, there are people who are pro-Jews and anti-Gazan-genocide. There’s not too much action available for those of us in this cognitive-dissonance camp – perhaps write to politicians? I can report that my senators (most likely their staff) are either unresponsive or send replies indicating strong disagreement with my POV.

6. Everything in my life seems to be back in the day. I remember the Gaza Strip being in play back before high school. Israel has coveted wanted safe space since it was formed as an isolated state. They won the first piece in 1967. They wrecked Lebanon on the north and they an no longer a big threat. There’s just this one last piece and Israel is hell-bent to take it, with our billions in tax dollars. I have no idea why our Imparator wants to help this guy murder all these people and take what doesn’t belong to him. I always thought of Trump as anti-Semitic.

   1. Maybe you’re wrong?

      1. or maybe not.
         There is an entire wikipedia article about Donald Trumps antisemitism.
         This is, after all, the guy who called the literal nazis (like with swastikas etc) who yelled “jews will not replace us” “very fine people”. Plus his endless alluding to “George Soros”, “globalists”, etc. I mean, these are not even dog whistles. But full-on bullhorns